Master of stealth + Marines

I feel Master of stealth + marines is very unbalanced at the moment and I was wondering if anyone else agrees.

Lots of advantage, marines have 7 attack and 6 defence for a low cost of 140 and low skill level to use. To compare with Tank General a tank will have 7 attack and 5 defence for 130 and this is without the HUGE advantage of stealth.

This is especially bad as the sentry plane has a pretty small view range for detecting them and is very expensive so out of the question early game.

Often you do not realise you are playing a marine player untill its already to late, its almost impossable to defend against. If you do defend your capital you can not expand nearly as quckly and if you do not defend he can just sneak in a stack of marines and be almost guaranteed to win. Not that even defending seems to help me much haha.
Attacking is also clearly a minefield because you never know how many units he has in his cap early game or if he has a stack nearby to counter attack.
You mostly have no idea which battles you can and can not win or where to defend. It takes all the stratagy out of the game when you can just ninja cap with a huge stack of marines.

Meanwhile it seems to me he has no real large disadvantage to deal with.

More and more people now use this stratagy which is clear sign that people know its the best to me. If I am just over reacting and anyone has any tips on how to defend/attack against a good player useing this strategy or if you agree please let me know because im out of ideas.

Good points, I guess it's nerfing time...

Just like that? Do you consider buffing the sentry planes instead of nerfing the marines? I already spend all my SP on them.
Your cap could hardly be ninjad when you set up sentry planes around it and leave defensive units there. Every strategy can be countered. I, for example, find it hard to play against people who use perfect defense, when I use marines.
And last game a player was pretty effective with his sentry planes + bombers against me. Theres always a way and just because a single person complaines about it, it doesn't mean you have to instantly nerf something.

Napísal learster, 23.01.2011 at 14:29

Just like that? Do you consider buffing the sentry planes instead of nerfing the marines? I already spend all my SP on them.
Your cap could hardly be ninjad when you set up sentry planes around it and leave defensive units there. Every strategy can be countered. I, for example, find it hard to play against people who use perfect defense, when I use marines.
And last game a player was pretty effective with his sentry planes + bombers against me. Theres always a way and just because a single person complaines about it, it doesn't mean you have to instantly nerf something.

He's not the only one complaining, that's the whole point.

Alright. I admit that it's very strong, but I also fear that I wasted my SP now. 62k is alot of game time.
Please just don't overdo it, or reset the SP after major changes.

Your argument is not very compelling everyone finds it hard attacking people with perfect defence thats the point of perfect defence.

Does it not seem weird to you that a player has to spend money on bombers and sentry planes, both expensive units just to have a chance of fighting you when all you do is pump out cheap units?

To have any chance of defending I need (many) expensive sentry planes, and a huge stack of infantry acording to you. With their 6 defence I would need many more infantry to defend than you would need marines to attack. The difference between 7 attack and 6 defence is allot more than people realise I think.
''Theres always a way'' yes I'm sure even if they are nurfed you can still win.

Im happy to be proven wrong even though I don't think I will be. But please think a little bit more about your argument other than how it will effect you. Maybe a few examples and comparisons?

edit: Ah well seems I was slow to respond.

Napísal learster, 23.01.2011 at 14:43

Alright. I admit that it's very strong, but I also fear that I wasted my SP now. 62k is alot of game time.
Please just don't overdo it, or reset the SP after major changes.

I agree - its silly when you spend a lot of SP to make upgrades to marines, and then the only strategy where they are useful is nerfed. (I.e. would never spend money on faster marines, lucky marines, etc, if I'm never going to use them after Master of Stealth is nerfed).

Yes this is a beta, but its discouraging when the usefulness of your upgrades is yanked out from underneath you. Perhaps a good solution would be at the end of beta (when these balance issues are worked out, and no strategy changes are on the horizon) to allow players a refund on the SP upgrades that have been rendered basically useless.

Edit: Or yes, a simpler method as learseter suggests - just reset SPs at the end of beta (refund all upgrades) - and people can re-purchase the ones they want to keep that are still useful

Um just a little input here but i just got my but handed to me when playing as master of stealth against a naval player. granted he was a good player and put everything he could into the attack but it doesnt make sence for a 30 stack of battleships to take out 50 defence units but 10 mariens cant take out 5 malita and 5 battleships.

Napísal Guest14502, 23.01.2011 at 17:03

Edit: Or yes, a simpler method as learseter suggests - just reset SPs at the end of beta (refund all upgrades) - and people can re-purchase the ones they want to keep that are still useful

Yes, we will probably do that.

Any suggestions on how to nerf Master Of Stealth a bit without pissing off anyone?

I'm not exactly sure what master of stealth does that makes it overpowered, but a suggestion mentioned that I think sounds good is to increase the detection range of spy planes. If you could adequately defend yourself with only a few planes that would be sufficient I think. I mean they're expensive but it's not like they cost thousands of dollars or anything, their price only becomes a problem because you need so many of them.

Maybe because battleships cost more and are harder to produce also attacking with 10 men just shows how over confident you are? He might have just had a few marines in his cap after learning from you?
Im noticing all the pro stealth players here are high rank. Its a little distressing to see you put put all your SP into one tatic then come here to moan about it being nurfed when you probably would not have used all your SP in the first place if it was not OP. I dont think its normal to only invest in one unit.
Because you abused a strategy is not a good reason to keep it.
Also I'm sure they wont nurf it into being useless and you can still use your perks post nurf when its fair and fun for everyone not just you. So whats the problem?

Sorry but can anyone offer a better argument than being beaten once (it does not tell us much other than you are surprised that you ever lose at all) or moaning about SP wasted. After trying out this tatic without spending huge ammounts of SP on it I'm even more sure it's OP now, as long as I get a average start im pretty unstoppable, it's almost ridiculous.

:edit omg to slow to respond again

Cituj:

Cituj:

Yes, we will probably do that.

Any suggestions on how to nerf Master Of Stealth a bit without pissing off anyone?

Just some quick thoughts:

Up the cost or reduce an attack or defence stat slightly.

The larger that stack of marines the easier it should be to spot . It should not be hard to see a army of 100 people. This only increases the micro of a good player though as he can just seprate them untill the final attack. But at least a marine player would have to use his brain.

Reduce the cost of sentry planes and increase their spot radius.

Their movement seems to be too generous with master of stealth.


I'm not saying all these need to be done it's just what comes to my mne now.

Changed attack bonus for Marines to +1 (used to be +2). Submarines and Stealth still have +2 attack bonus.

Cituj:

Cituj:

Napísal King Cow, 24.01.2011 at 02:48

Yes, we will probably do that.

Any suggestions on how to nerf Master Of Stealth a bit without pissing off anyone?

The larger that stack of marines the easier it should be to spot . It should not be hard to see a army of 100 people. This only increases the micro of a good player though as he can just seprate them untill the final attack. But at least a marine player would have to use his brain.

I think that's a good idea. It also makes it easier for other players to kill the small groups of marines, one after another. Of course, they need to spot them first, but for that you might buff the sentry planes detection range?

Napísal Ivan, 24.01.2011 at 03:27

Changed attack bonus for Marines to +1 (used to be +2). Submarines and Stealth still have +2 attack bonus.

Seems much better but might not completely fix the problem. Submarines and stealth are fine as they are, very expensive and you never see many used normally.
I think sentry plane should still get a boost to its detect stealth range otherwise what are you paying for?

The detect larger stacks idea would be nice but it's probably hard to implement, I guess.

Wow....Just got my ass handed to me playing MOS with my lucky/faster/cheaper marines. Guess they just weren't lucky ENOUGH anymore....:(

If you're gonna nerf their attack, at least make them cheaper--I mean what are we paying for otherwise?

Napísal Ivan, 24.01.2011 at 03:27

Changed attack bonus for Marines to +1 (used to be +2). Submarines and Stealth still have +2 attack bonus.

I will try a few games with the newly weakened marines, and see how they go. Its not like I win every time as it is with them at +2 though....

Yeah I'm in the same situation as n00less playing MOS now is significantly more difficult in a way that doesn't add challenge or fun. Just expanding was a nuisance as 10-14 marines were regularly getting beat by 7 infantry while trying to take India. Honestly I'm a little upset with the developers for so quickly caving in to a single individuals complaints when he has repeatedly been presented with reasons why MoS is fine the way it is. It seems more like the topic creator is angry when playing against someone who utilizes a stealth strategy because it requires him to play the game differently. To me this is the entire point of strategies, each requires your opponent to play against you differently. Punishing all those that liked to play with stealth because 1 person is vocal about how angry he is getting beat doesn't seem fair at all.

Napísal Gigglin, 24.01.2011 at 13:45

Yeah I'm in the same situation as n00less playing MOS now is significantly more difficult in a way that doesn't add challenge or fun. Just expanding was a nuisance as 10-14 marines were regularly getting beat by 7 infantry while trying to take India. Honestly I'm a little upset with the developers for so quickly caving in to a single individuals complaints when he has repeatedly been presented with reasons why MoS is fine the way it is. It seems more like the topic creator is angry when playing against someone who utilizes a stealth strategy because it requires him to play the game differently. To me this is the entire point of strategies, each requires your opponent to play against you differently. Punishing all those that liked to play with stealth because 1 person is vocal about how angry he is getting beat doesn't seem fair at all.

First of all, I've heard it from 4 people, not one. Then, the strategy does seem overpowered when you look at the stats. Marines are awesome, but I don't think they should have the same attack as Tanks (with higher defence!), while also being invisible.

As I said in the game I was just playing with you Gigglin, maybe you could actually post in this thread some suggestions as to how players can over come the old marines without a Nerf. As in the game and now in the forums you have no reply I think.

Maybe you need to learn like everyone else you need more than just 20 marines to win any game? I have trouble killing infantry in India, Japan etc they are ment to give you trouble in the best areas. To be honest I think you are exaggerating as I saw you still take over half of india with at most 20 marines. I mean really have you ever even built stealth bombers before? They are still great.

I tested out stealth today after the change and I still did absolutely fine....

If you're going to nerf the marines, can you at least reduce the defense of tanks by 1 (I'd prefer reducing it 2)? Otherwise MoS has no chance against an incoming tank assault.

Napísal King Cow, 24.01.2011 at 15:11

As I said in the game I was just playing with you Gigglin, maybe you could actually post in this thread some suggestions as to how players can over come the old marines without a Nerf. As in the game and now in the forums you have no reply I think.

Maybe you need to learn like everyone else you need more than just 20 marines to win any game? I have trouble killing infantry in India, Japan etc they are ment to give you trouble in the best areas. To be honest I think you are exaggerating as I saw you still take over half of india with at most 20 marines. I mean really have you ever even built stealth bombers before? They are still great.

I tested out stealth today after the change and I still did absolutely fine....

And as I mentioned in that game your entire issue with stealth can be overcome by setting up a few simple defense lines and you will never have to worry about getting raided. I would love to know how you reason how many troops I used in India when on my first turn I sent 14 at Delhi only to have them kill 2 infantry before being completely destroyed. Stealths are wonderful and an integral part of strategy but it is obvious that marines are meant to be the main land unit of anyone using Master of Stealth and they just aren't feasible now as expansion will be severely slowed down. I really have no desire to use Master of Stealth anymore and all the SP I have spent on Marine upgrades to make the strategy viable has been wasted.

Personally I love using blitzkrieg to overcome marines by taking out key points with tanks traveling great distances and marines can not keep up with this strategy when played right. Also as mentioned a solid navy can easily overcome stealth units. It seemed to me that stealth was meant to provide for alternative ways to play the game but people quickly got upset that you couldn't play against Master of Stealth the same way as you would against a Tank General.

What I enjoy most about Aftewind is it's diversity in gameplay but this seriously reduces that as marines are barely useful without Master of Stealth and now with it's decreased capabilities it just is a waste as they can now easily be taken out tanks and they're ability to deal with infantry without going in to battle with a serious numbers advantage is diminished.

I have to agree with gigglin

Gigglin maybe you should really think about building more than one type of unit, much like everyone else has always had to do?
I don't think marines are meant to be unstoppable killing machines more ninja atackers to take out weak spots. If you use some tactics they are just fine now.
After playing with you I'm not even sure you realise that you get a income bonus from capping every town in a country. Maybe you could use marines here somehow to attack peoples income? To be honest I'm shocked at the lack of skill of many(not all) high rank stealth players, having it so easy has not really helped you guys learn much...
You simply do not use any tactic other than sending stacks of marines at capitals and expect to win 100% of the time. I sent 11 tanks and 8 infantry to attack 9 inf Tokyo in that match Gigglin and had just 2 inf left afterwards.

All a defence lines does is delay the stealth player for one turn normally, nothing more. It did very little to help you defend before, especially if you do not have a land bottle neck you can use to put the line across. Most of the map is very wide open.

You guys just miss your ninja stealth tanks with high defence. They were more like robots than marines to be honest.

I really feel alot of the posts here are shortsighted and selfish......

Reading your post, King, it made me think of changing Marines. Maybe instead of being equal to tanks (Honestly, they have almost the same attack and same defense), maybe they should have decent attack, but very low defense, but fast move speed. I mean Ivan has stated that the units have to be unique, but as is the Marines play the same role as Tanks, only they're invisible. So if marines got absolutely demolished by tanks and infantry, their role would drastically change.

Instead of amassing thousands of marines and steamrolling your opponent, you'd send squads to the lightly defended towns as suggested above. I mean a LOT of people don't put units in their towns, just the militia that spawn and that's it. So if marines had really fast travel speed, they could zip in behind enemy lines and cap undefended cities, but if they were ever caught in a straight up fight against tanks they'd get their asses handed to them.

If it was that way, we'd have Offense (Tanks) Defense (Infantry) and Sabotage (Marines). Cuz I just played a game where I was fighting a marine user and it really was quite retarded. Even with my tank general strategy, I had to outnumber his marines to even stand a chance. The fact that marines can beat tanks and are stealthed really does seem broken to me. Why even bother getting tanks when marines have the same stats, yet are invisible?

Napísal Colt556, 25.01.2011 at 04:05

Reading your post, King, it made me think of changing Marines. Maybe instead of being equal to tanks (Honestly, they have almost the same attack and same defense)

Marines with Master Of Stealth:
6/6
Tanks with Tank General:
8/5

Don't look equal to me

Yeah I guess this thread is pointless now as marines seem to be fine.

King Cow--I don't think bad play has anything to do with M.O.S.

I've seen high ranked players of Perfect Defense or Tank General or whatnot leaving the non-capital cities open, or forgetting to make defensive lines, or really using their armies with anything approaching coordinated effort....

As for the nerfed M.O.S., I think it's been killed for anyone without all the marine upgrades--still seems somewhat playable with the upgrades on a map that can afford them....

Stealths and Subs are still out of the price range of anything but a midgame high-income map--Unless we're in week 20 of Eurasia, no one is building either of those units in any serious quantities unless you started with 50K....

In any case, Balancing is a fine-edged sword, and I think that the Marines were nerfed a little OVER much. I'm more in support of Colt's suggestion:

Leave the Marines attack bonus as it was (+2) but add a defensive penalty of (-1) to all Stealth units--call it the over confidence factor;
I mean seriously, Ninjas are great at infiltrating the enemy, but they make horrible guards--just ask Bruce Lee

The REAL problem with Marines wasn't their offense, it's attacking a seemingly unprotected city, to get demolished when you find out 20 hidden marines are there.

This would also make defensive lines even more useful against marines, as by attacking them, the marines become visible, and can be targeted by the wise opponent....

Marines with MOS is having 6/6
They as good in defence as Infantry in PD
and equally good at attacking as tanks in non "TG" strategy.
So you have yourself invisible stack of doom, capable of conquer town and hold it the very next turn with equal efficency..... sounds wrong to me.

I think defence should be nerfed, I am ok with "surprice attacks" and aggresive marinesation, but there should be something on the other side.
If person will have to think about defence it is a plus already.

I like that Idea... make the Marines 7/5 or even 8/4..... with +1 More to speed.
Then it forces a player to use his or her Marines with skill
they wont be able to ball them up in a huge stack they would have to go about it in a different way...

The more I think about it the more I like the 8/4... Offense there great, defense they suck.. so someone cant just come in and take your cap and expect to hold it.. They will have to do it differently.. and I like that Idea.. it would bring more skill to the class then just a class that's unbeatable.

then the Defense lines would come more into effect. People would need them not for defense but as a simple counter attack. As soon as the Marines hit the lines just like any defense the real military uses... you have to and need to provide overwatch. the Military sets up defenses and mine fields but they always have some one in overwatch.. so if someone hits the defense (Marines) then there is something to take them out.

if anything test it out a different way and find our from everyone what they think of the change.. try 8/4 I know its a flip from 6/6 but I think it will make the unit what its should be. since if you think about it 50 Marines attacks a defense line 30 tanks in TG hit them well the 30 should win... since if the Marines have 4 defense makes them very soft... now if there was no defense line then whats to stop the Marines.. thats the point people need to Learn they need the defense line to counter it... and I feel making Marines more soft will make them more fun to play. Since there is now a High risk when using them..

Well that is my 2C my First post but I figured I should say something about this

Have a great day..