Judicial Fairness as applied to SP Reductions

Back in the days when SP reductions were just an idea, I have emphasized fairness above all else.

Most of the complaints about this now implemented measure are caused by player disagreements with the moderators' decisions on how much SP, if any, should be removed from various maps and scenarios.

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

There are many ideas here on the forum that will establish such a judicial standard which does not rely at all on unreliable human input.

Administrators, if you are reading this post, I urge you to adopt one of them.

Comment and discuss.

Bacon

Napísal Skittzophrenic, 21.10.2014 at 02:15

Bacon

Bacon always best.
But alas, cannot be implemented in game.

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

Back in the days when SP reductions were just an idea, I have emphasized fairness above all else.

Most of the complaints about this now implemented measure are caused by player disagreements with the moderators' decisions on how much SP, if any, should be removed from various maps and scenarios.

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

There are many ideas here on the forum that will establish such a judicial standard which does not rely at all on unreliable human input.

Administrators, if you are reading this post, I urge you to adopt one of them.

Comment and discuss.

By most, you mean there is only 4 complains:

Clovis (autistic)
Avatar (map maker of an affected map)
Syrian force (autistic)
Killingforfun (collaborator of an affected map)

Nobody else is complaining, the people above are not to be taken seriously as they are bias or unable to help themselves

Napísal Guest, 21.10.2014 at 06:40

In Desus we must trust.

All maps besides 3vs3 EU 0% sp xaxa

10/10 idea it's not too bad - IGN

The issue is not only the 'fairness' , but more the 'value' of SP, which varies from player to player. There can be no truly objective standard, because each of us has our own idea of what a strategy point is worth. So it's the mods who are in the position to bring balance to SP, not necessarily because they are 'absolutely' objective, but because they are active in the community, have experience with the game, and see what is happening with so called 'RP' games.

I think the SP reductions are 'fairer' than what was going on with farming maps, but to have a system that is absolutely fair for everyone means one that everyone agrees to it. Anyone who reads the forums knows there are some people who disagree, just for the sake of having a debate, so it would be impossible for everyone to agree...

So we have the mods making the decisions, and they listen to players and can adjust their reductions as needed to eventually find the right balance. But the bottom line is, no one is being prevented from playing an RP map now, so from that view, it's fair - people can still play. And i don't see any maps where the mods have made ridiculous adjustments. The adjustments made reflect a given mod's own value of SP for that map, yes, it's subjective... but the fact you don't see a lobby full of RP games anymore tells me they have solved the problem of SP farming, and they have done it in a way that respects those who worked hard to get their SP, while allowing players to play any game they choose.

The precise standard you seek is as follows:

Play Atwar... love the game.
Accept that mods can adjust SP, they are trying to strike a balance between SP earned and difficulty of a map,they will never get it perfect for everyone, and they may not value SP the same way you do, but they aren't going out of their way to destroy your enjoyment of the RP map. (and message them if you think they are... they will respond)
Don't play AtWar if you can't accept.

Cheers.

Hazardouz, you are being ridiculous.
I do not care, and you shouldn't either, whether the complainers are autistic or idiotic. Their complaints are still valid until refuted. The fact that it was a three year old who told me that US school buses are yellow didn't make it any less true, did it?

Brianwl, yes, I agree that the current situation is better than the previous one. That's not what I am complaining about. I am complaining that the administrators have chosen to adopt this particular solution, when many better proposals have already been discussed in the forums.
Not everyone has to agree to something for it to be fair. It merely has to apply to everyone as equally as possible.

Napísal Tundy, 21.10.2014 at 06:33

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

Back in the days when SP reductions were just an idea, I have emphasized fairness above all else.

Most of the complaints about this now implemented measure are caused by player disagreements with the moderators' decisions on how much SP, if any, should be removed from various maps and scenarios.

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

There are many ideas here on the forum that will establish such a judicial standard which does not rely at all on unreliable human input.

Administrators, if you are reading this post, I urge you to adopt one of them.

Comment and discuss.

By most, you mean there is only 4 complains:

Clovis (autistic)
Avatar (map maker of an affected map)
Syrian force (autistic)
Killingforfun (collaborator of an affected map)

Nobody else is complaining, the people above are not to be taken seriously as they are bias or unable to help themselves

You should totally add your self on that ''Not to be taking seriously list''

Totally support, if sp reductions are going to made it should first be discussed in forums with proper vote being done on it.

Napísal minusSeven, 22.10.2014 at 09:48

Totally support, if sp reductions are going to made it should first be discussed in forums with proper vote being done on it.

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

Napísal Waffel, 22.10.2014 at 06:16

Napísal Tundy, 21.10.2014 at 06:33

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

Back in the days when SP reductions were just an idea, I have emphasized fairness above all else.

Most of the complaints about this now implemented measure are caused by player disagreements with the moderators' decisions on how much SP, if any, should be removed from various maps and scenarios.

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

There are many ideas here on the forum that will establish such a judicial standard which does not rely at all on unreliable human input.

Administrators, if you are reading this post, I urge you to adopt one of them.

Comment and discuss.

By most, you mean there is only 4 complains:

Clovis (autistic)
Avatar (map maker of an affected map)
Syrian force (autistic)
Killingforfun (collaborator of an affected map)

Nobody else is complaining, the people above are not to be taken seriously as they are bias or unable to help themselves

You should totally add your self on that ''Not to be taking seriously list''

I am not Bias or hypocrite, and never lie in arguments.
Unlike you, i have a reliable opinion.

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

We have the average SP per player of all maps, so we tweak the maps towards more reasonable SP gains.

Napísal notserral, 22.10.2014 at 14:43

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

We have the average SP per player of all maps, so we tweak the maps towards more reasonable SP gains.

That sounds reasonable :) I think we don't need to care too much of sp, it's about the enjoyment that counts

Napísal Tundy, 22.10.2014 at 10:33

Napísal minusSeven, 22.10.2014 at 09:48

Totally support, if sp reductions are going to made it should first be discussed in forums with proper vote being done on it.

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

Couldn't agree more. And it never will. Best way is to leave up to mods. They are all respectable and mature leaders of the community who will make best decisions

Napísal notserral, 22.10.2014 at 14:43

We have the average SP per player of all maps, so we tweak the maps towards more reasonable SP gains.

All well and good... in theory.
How do you define "reasonable"?
Sure. You have average SP per player. Can you really account for properly some other variables like average number of players per game, average length of game, etc?
People, moderators included, are rarely unbiased in all ways.

Napísal Sultan of Swing, 22.10.2014 at 19:52

Napísal Tundy, 22.10.2014 at 10:33

Napísal minusSeven, 22.10.2014 at 09:48

Totally support, if sp reductions are going to made it should first be discussed in forums with proper vote being done on it.

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

Couldn't agree more. And it never will. Best way is to leave up to mods. They are all respectable and mature leaders of the community who will make best decisions

You know mods used to be one of those ''noobs''?
You know mods are just people like us, and they get picked and become mod?

Napísal Tundy, 22.10.2014 at 10:33

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

it does work actually , Most people wanted sp reductions for RP on forums and that is why it got implemented

Napísal minusSeven, 23.10.2014 at 07:58

Napísal Tundy, 22.10.2014 at 10:33

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

it does work actually , Most people wanted sp reductions for RP on forums and that is why it got implemented

Only high ranks posted their opinions, the rule of the few is not democracy, high ranks make up less than 8% of atwar.

I am not saying that the sp reduction is bad, just that its implementation wasn't the result of democracy.

Napísal International, 23.10.2014 at 03:51

Napísal notserral, 22.10.2014 at 14:43

We have the average SP per player of all maps, so we tweak the maps towards more reasonable SP gains.

All well and good... in theory.
How do you define "reasonable"?
Sure. You have average SP per player. Can you really account for properly some other variables like average number of players per game, average length of game, etc?
People, moderators included, are rarely unbiased in all ways.

We tweak it according to the world map average. If the map avg is way higher than the world map avg, then we tweak it. Otherwise we don't.

Napísal Waffel, 23.10.2014 at 04:08

Napísal Sultan of Swing, 22.10.2014 at 19:52

Napísal Tundy, 22.10.2014 at 10:33

Napísal minusSeven, 22.10.2014 at 09:48

Totally support, if sp reductions are going to made it should first be discussed in forums with proper vote being done on it.

Democracy doesn't work on the internet. Sorry.

Clovis can get 10 noobs from the Beginners room to outvote map makers like Aetius and tik-tok

Couldn't agree more. And it never will. Best way is to leave up to mods. They are all respectable and mature leaders of the community who will make best decisions

You know mods used to be one of those ''noobs''?
You know mods are just people like us, and they get picked and become mod?

yea well they had to have a good something to them to be picked

edit: pls change ur avatar btw, its disgusting

Napísal notserral, 23.10.2014 at 14:32

We tweak it according to the world map average. If the map avg is way higher than the world map avg, then I tweak it. Otherwise we don't.

Sorry if I'm being unclear. Let me summarise my question:

How do the mods decide how much SP to remove from any given map? Doesn't it come down, in the end, to your gut feeling?

Based on the discussion around, I don't think the mods have been adjusting it to the inverse of the SP gain.

Also, now I'm curious why you only adjust maps that give more SP than the world map. I thought the admins gave mods the power to increase SP as well?

Cheers, and I await your answer.

Napísal International, 24.10.2014 at 11:12

Napísal notserral, 23.10.2014 at 14:32

We tweak it according to the world map average. If the map avg is way higher than the world map avg, then I tweak it. Otherwise we don't.

Sorry if I'm being unclear. Let me summarise my question:

How do the mods decide how much SP to remove from any given map? Doesn't it come down, in the end, to your gut feeling?

I think some mods use a more mathematical approach, but i don't think they are going to admit 'yes, it's our gut feeling'... even though you have a point.

Safari proposed some ideas but you've commented on his post already ==>

http://atwar-game.com/news/news.php?news_id=135&page=&message_id=

Napísal International, 21.10.2014 at 01:38

Back in the days when SP reductions were just an idea, I have emphasized fairness above all else.

Most of the complaints about this now implemented measure are caused by player disagreements with the moderators' decisions on how much SP, if any, should be removed from various maps and scenarios.

This trouble is caused by the simple fact that there is no precise standard for SP reductions. The moderators merely use the number that feels right which, although probably reasonable, is different from what other players might feel is right.

There are many ideas here on the forum that will establish such a judicial standard which does not rely at all on unreliable human input.

Administrators, if you are reading this post, I urge you to adopt one of them.

Comment and discuss.

Are you a communist? fair sp mulitplier for everyone?

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 07:41

Are you a communist? fair sp mulitplier for everyone?

There is a difference between equal opportunity and equal reward.
Communists argue for equal reward. I argue for equal opportunity.

If I held Marxist beliefs, I probably would argue that everyone should receive similar amounts of SP per turn, and that some players landing 50SP per turn while others struggle to get into the double digits is unfair.

I am not doing that. I merely argue that everyone must have the same potential for earning SP. Whether players actually earn similar amounts of SP is irrelevant to me.

Napísal International, 26.10.2014 at 08:06

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 07:41

Are you a communist? fair sp mulitplier for everyone?

There is a difference between equal opportunity and equal reward.
Communists argue for equal reward. I argue for equal opportunity.

If I held Marxist beliefs, I probably would argue that everyone should receive similar amounts of SP per turn, and that some players landing 50SP per turn while others struggle to get into the double digits is unfair.

I am not doing that. I merely argue that everyone must have the same potential for earning SP. Whether players actually earn similar amounts of SP is irrelevant to me.

so you agree to the 50% sp mutiplier for RP. IF you do than delete this stupid thread. or are you implying that i can make a 10 reinfocment for every city and really dense map. and call it roleplay to make it legit without calling it sp farming?

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 08:32

so you agree to the 50% sp mutiplier for RP. IF you do than delete this stupid thread. or are you implying that i can make a 10 reinfocment for every city and really dense map. and call it roleplay to make it legit without calling it sp farming?

You are not understanding my point at all.
I have no complaints about the SP reductions on RP maps.
What I have complaints about, rather, is the arbitrary nature of the application of those reductions.
Furthermore, I take offense at you calling my thread "stupid." I expect a civil and reasoned discussion conducted without insults.

Napísal International, 26.10.2014 at 08:43

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 08:32

so you agree to the 50% sp mutiplier for RP. IF you do than delete this stupid thread. or are you implying that i can make a 10 reinfocment for every city and really dense map. and call it roleplay to make it legit without calling it sp farming?

You are not understanding my point at all.
I have no complaints about the SP reductions on RP maps.
What I have complaints about, rather, is the arbitrary nature of the application of those reductions.
Furthermore, I take offense at you calling my thread "stupid." I expect a civil and reasoned discussion conducted without insults.

The mod did made good decision on rp and i respect that since half of rp fag just farm it.

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 08:47

The mod did made good decision on rp and i respect that since half of rp fag just farm it.

I am not saying that the decision was bad! What I am saying is that the reductions are too arbitrary.

For example, Tempted's RP has a -50% SP reduction, while Adog's RP has only -25%. Who comes up with these numbers? Why did they reduce SP of Adog's RP by 25%, instead of 20%, 30%, or 35%? Why did they reduce SP of Tempted's RP by 50%, instead of 45%, 55%, or 60%?

Right now, the answer boils down to "because 25% and 50% felt about right."
I have big problems with that approach.

Now do you understand my point?

Napísal International, 26.10.2014 at 08:55

Napísal Htin, 26.10.2014 at 08:47

The mod did made good decision on rp and i respect that since half of rp fag just farm it.

I am not saying that the decision was bad! What I am saying is that the reductions are too arbitrary.

For example, Tempted's RP has a -50% SP reduction, while Adog's RP has only -25%. Who comes up with these numbers? Why did they reduce SP of Adog's RP by 25%, instead of 20%, 30%, or 35%? Why did they reduce SP of Tempted's RP by 50%, instead of 45%, 55%, or 60%?

Right now, the answer boils down to "because 25% and 50% felt about right."
I have big problems with that approach.

Now do you understand my point?

there A terroist slide it makes it fair and reduce ally banging in adog

[Average World Game SP reward] = [Average RP SP reward] x [SP nerf factor 1] = [Average UN SP reward] x [SP nerf factor 2] etc.

This is the theory behind the SP nerf/boost factors.
Is it precise? Probably not.

BUT, we cannot support players ranking from 0 to 10 in 4-5 months; we cannot promote the crowding-out of maps and scenarios because a great part of the community are (were) playing RP/UN/WG50K for the sole purpose of getting fast SP. Please remember that here was a discussion on banning UN/RP/WG50K for their SP boost (reinf and income) and that the decision was taken to nerf SP rather than banning these types of maps/scenarios.

Does the system need improvements? Probably yes. We welcome suggestions... just remember that we got much much closer to "justice" than before SP deduction/boosting factors were implemented!